#10 From Music Publishing to Physiotherapy: Libby Jarman on Purpose, Resilience and Saying No

Jayne Ellis on I’m Fine – The Truth Behind the Smile welcomes physiotherapist and researcher Libby Jarman for a powerful and honest conversation about career change, compassion, burnout, and the realities of caring for others.

Libby shares her fascinating journey from a successful career in music publishing to becoming a physiotherapist, driven by a desire to do work that felt meaningful and made a difference. Along the way, she reflects on working in research, supporting people living with multiple sclerosis, and the challenges and rewards of building her own business.

Together, Jayne and Libby explore the emotional impact of healthcare professions, the hidden toll of witnessing trauma, and why so many of us answer “I’m fine” when the truth is far more complicated. They discuss professional identity, the pressures of modern healthcare, the importance of genuine human connection, and how our personal experiences shape the way we care for others.

Libby also opens up about her own experience of burnout, the importance of creativity and music in maintaining wellbeing, and the powerful lesson that many of us learn too late: it’s okay to say no without explanation.

This episode is a thoughtful and relatable conversation for healthcare professionals, carers, teachers and anyone who has ever put everyone else’s needs before their own.

Find out more about Libby Jarman - www.ejhomephysio.com 

Connect - https://www.linkedin.com/in/libby-jarman-ba7098169/

EF training exists because nobody should have to pour from an empty cup. Founded by Jayne Ellis who learnt the hard way so you don't have too.

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The views and options expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, values or position of EF training Ltd. Guest content is shared in the spirit of open conversation, learning and intended as a safe space for honest dialogue. 

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the I'm Fine podcast with me, Jayne Ellis. My lovely guest today is Libby, and we met professionally. She is a physio and she invited me on her podcast, so I thought I'd get in first. Would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and and tell us a little bit about your journey into your profession? Yes, of course. Hello everybody, and thank you Jayne very much for asking me onto your podcast and being cheeky and getting in first. So my name's Libby Jarman. I'm a physiotherapist now. But I haven't always been a physio. I started off in the music industry and I did a music degree. And then after that went into music publishing and worked, having a fantastic time, I have to say, in music publishing for about 10 years- Wow Before I had this grand idea that I wanted to do something, and it's a bit of a cliche, but I wanted to do something a little bit more caring. I think I'd always had this idea that I might have wanted to go into medicine when I was younger, but I was very arty. And I'm very musical and I played to my strengths and I think it's one of those things when you're younger, you don't necessarily know what it is that really interests you. It's something that comes to you as you get older. But I never thought I was- Yeah clever enough to be a doctor. So I went with my strengths and I did a music degree. It was great. Went into music publishing, was fantastic. And then I had this thought that I wanted to do something more caring, but I didn't quite know what it was that I wanted to do. I think the obvious choice was maybe something like music therapy. But at the time I was in London and I was working in classical music publishing, and that is quite a niche area to work in. Yeah. So the job opportunities and the ability to move with your career is quite limited, and I was a bit fed up with it and I thought, "I'm not gonna just hop from one niche career into another one." And I actually thought I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. That was what I had in my mind that I was going to do, but I thought, "I'm gonna take a break." And because I think today kids take breaks all the time, don't they? Have a gap year. It just wasn't- Yeah back in the '90s, like it wasn't a thing. No. So I took the opportunity of leaving music publishing to have a break and I went out to Gibraltar and eventually Spain to just have a break. My sister was out there as a midwife at the time. And I ended up staying three years out there, again, living the high life, having a great time. But I did actually start doing a degree conversion course whilst I was there to become a- psychologist. The very beginning of the road of becoming a psychologist. It's a long, old road. But I had a horrific experience with a friend of mine and it just made me completely do a 180, and I thought, "Nope, I don't wanna do anything psychological now. I want to be absolutely 100% physical." That's what I want to do. What am I going to do? I'm gonna be a physiotherapist. Here we go. And then it was just a it was just one a target after another. So I had no science, I had no science A levels at all, no science background, so I had to do a course to up my skills in science before I could even apply to do physio. Yeah. That took a year. Then of course there was the, getting into university, getting a place. And I did that and I got there and I could probably say to you hand on heart, I don't know whether I should say this out loud, but When I got to university to do physio- Yeah I knew pretty much in the first week that it wasn't gonna be the love of my life I just knew. Yeah and I think maybe, part of it, I was 30, when I went to university, and I went back into, undergraduate world again- Yeah with 18-year-old, teeny bops who were all skinny and blonde ponytails and sporty- and dancing around everywhere, and I was like, "What the heck is this is not what I had imagined." Yeah. And there was a group of us mature students that I think all the young ones viewed with a certain amount of suspicion. And I thought, "No, I'm not sure that this is for me." So I've tried to find ways in my career as a physio of making it meaningful to me. And I was very fortunate that when I graduated, my first job was in an independent charity-led hospital in Tunbridge Wells, where I didn't go through the whole, band five rotations and all of that kind of thing. They didn't exist back in the day. There weren't very many of them. There were more physios than there were band five rotations. Yeah. So I got a really broad exposure to many and various different conditions, a lot of which had a psychological root. Yeah. And I got to treat some very rare conditions. And it was fantastic, but obviously you get to the point where you want to move forward in your career. And I then, went up the banding scale, and I started to work in a private company doing community work essentially. And very quickly after that, I got promoted into a management role. And I did that management role for, I don't know, a year, 18 months, and then I thought, this is ridiculous. I've literally thrown my life up into the air." I'd sold my flat i'd retrained to be something completely different, and here I was again very quickly ending up in a management job, I think. I might as well have stayed in music publishing and, you know- So I gave that the boot and then went back to community physio again. And for the last 10 years I've been working in an acute trust in research specifically in multiple sclerosis research which has been fantastic 'cause it's been quite a interesting time to be working with people with MS with the new medications that are being tested and I found that I absolutely loved research. I still do. I still do love research. I loved working in research. I loved the challenge of it. Almost I like the intellectual side of it forcing me to question, and I was lucky enough to be able to do a funded master's in clinical research, which was an amazing opportunity. So I was able to do my own research on the back of that. And then after about 10 years, I thought I've been in this job a long time now." And I think, we might come onto this later, but I think you get to an age where it gets quite difficult to be- I'm gonna use the phrase pushed around by people who are essentially half your age- Yeah And don't think in the same way as you do. And you can only try for so long to work within those restrictions before you think enough." Yeah. A grand stair last year of setting up my own business and going out on my own and working for myself, which is, I would say, simultaneously fantastic and very frightening. 'Cause, you forget, yes you, when you work, you're on, salary. You don't think about how you're earning your money. No. You don't think whether it will come in at the end of the month or how much will come in at the end of the month. It's just, standard. Yeah. But I have to say I would recommend it to pretty much anyone to work for yourself because even though there's a stress in how am I gonna find patients? How am I gonna earn what I need to earn to maintain, a basic lifestyle? The freedom of being able to make your own choices and your own decisions and manage your own day is amazing. Now I wouldn't change it for the world now. I really wouldn't. No. I wouldn't either. Sorry, that's a long story, wasn't it? No. It's great. There's a really big difference between working in music publishing and working in physiotherapy. So my next question is, when you dipped your toe into that water and you walked through the steps of the university on that first day- with your new lanyard around your neck that said you were a student- Yeah. Yeah did you understand really the emotional impact that the job would have on you over a period of time? No. Not a clue. No. Not a clue. We weren't taught about that, I know. And I think there was an understanding that it was part of the job it was, part of what you do. I very quickly got an interest in sort of palliative sides of physiotherapy and I... Because I think, again, with me, I just always thinking about the psychological and having an impact. Yeah. Where can I go where I'll have an impact? I could spend my life in an outpatient clinic dealing with bad backs and, knee replacements. But, at the end of life, that's the time where you can have a huge impact on somebody's quality of life. Yeah. Actually, interestingly, just by bringing yourself to the visit and it becomes less about what you do to somebody and it's more of how you are with somebody. The relationship that you build, and that really appeals to me. I think it just tugged on that whole psychology thing with me again. I was much more interested in the psychology of everything- the other thing is as well, though that there's a big difference between working in a hospital environment or a clinic environment with somebody, and then walking into their home. That, puts you at a much greater psychological risk because you actually become part of the family. You took the words out of my mouth. And I was just about to say that. I think when you're in a hospital environment or even in a clinic environment, you are in control. You've got your uniform on, you've got the badge on, someone's come to reception. They've checked in, they come to see you, and that you are in the seat of power, when you're sitting running a clinic. When you come into somebody's home, it's a totally different situation. And it puts you on the back foot a little bit because A lot of your professional identity is seated in where you practice. You're in an environment which is professional- Yeah and you have your professional hat on. You go into somebody's home, you have to find a professional hat within a home environment where you haven't got all these trappings around you that make you more in control. Yeah. But again I think it's really.. Incredible when people invite you into their homes. I have to say, Jayne, I spent a long time when I was doing community physio, a long time ago now and I would knock on the door and I would say, "Oh, hello." I'd say, "Hello, it's Libby, the physio." "Oh, come in," they'd say, "Come in." And then they'd shout upstairs to the patient, who was usually in bed upstairs, and say, "The nurse has come to see you." Yeah. So many times. I say, "It's not the nurse, it's the physio." Yeah. So when you go into somebody's home and they are seeing multiple healthcare professionals, it's confusing sometimes for people- Yeah who it is at their door, and the assumption is that you're a nurse. Yeah. Whether you're an OT, whether you're a nurse, whether you're a healthcare assistant, whatever, you're a nurse. But it's got more confusing since, we all wear similar outfits. Yeah. 'Cause it used to be that, that you'd like, especially... i'm old enough to have worn a hat. Ooh. And you had stripes on your hat depending on how many... Were you first, second, or third year. But I always remember a patient saying to me, "I know who the nurses are because they wear hats." Oh, wow, okay. And so He could see you from walking around and he knew who you were. Okay. Which the some of the allied healthcare professionals, like physios, they didn't wear hats. And also physios wore green and nurses wore blue. It was easy for them to understand. But now if you go into hospital it's almost impossible to tell who people are. Very true. It's really difficult. Physios wear blue. OTs wear green so yeah, It changes where you go. Yeah. And then we were white. Yeah. And I was qualified. I know. It's madness, isn't it, really? It is. There was never any joined-up thinking about that. But going back to the psychological impact, I still think it's utterly morally reprehensible of the people who train health and social care professionals not to have any kind of emotional health and safety training in place. And I will bang on about that until they nail the lid down because it causes so much distress. And you're right, it's seen as being just that, you're a caring person, and therefore somehow magically with- Yeah rainbows and unicorns and fairy dust, you're going to be able to deal with the fact that you are in a home with somebody who is dying- Yeah and who is relying on you to help that process, or there's somebody who's been catastrophically hurt and their whole life has changed. Yeah. And you are the person who's supposed to be getting them back on their feet and doing what they do. Yeah. And it's wrong, and it has to change. I think it takes a while when you're... when you qualify and you start practicing for that to sink in. Yeah. Because I think you come out with an idea of what you need to do and who you are, and it takes experience of those kinds of patients- Yeah Over and over again for you to realize that it is having an impact. And as you say, absolutely no training about that at university whatsoever. I think also though that, the societal view of healthcare professionals is one that we need to question. Yeah. And I really think we need to kick back quite strongly on this, all nurses are angels. I can tell you from personal experience, they absolutely are not. Physiotherapists, physio terrorists. I've had patients hide under the bedclothes "don't tell the physio I'm here." I was getting that kind of thing, that's hard in their own home. Yeah. Yeah. In the hospital though, they'll tell the nurses- Yeah. No, I know "There's a physio. Warn me if the physio's coming, and I'll go and do something else." They do. Yeah. Or I'll pretend that I'm asleep. That's a good one, pretend that I'm asleep. Yeah. But it takes a while for you to realize that is having some kind of an impact, and then what do you do with that? I think because I was maybe older when I went into that profession, I dealt with it maybe, I don't know, a bit better because I was just older and, maybe a little bit wiser, Yeah on these things. But I think If you're young and you come against that, and you don't have life experience to draw on, it is actually quite difficult. Yeah but I still think that, it, in a way it is part of the job. I still have that sort of going through my head, if I go back to when I made the decision to be a physio, what did I want to do? I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to do work that was meaningful and wasn't just, a job, that it was something that was meaningful to me. Now, the trade-off there, you can't have a job that's meaningful to you that doesn't have some kind of emotional impact. I could be a lawyer. This is an interesting question, isn't it? Think if you were a lawyer and you were dealing with some very upsetting legal case, do lawyers have the same kind of emotional fatigue as healthcare workers? And they don't get the training. And so I think my point is probably this isn't a healthcare- No specific issue. This is a workplace issue in any particular... It's just I think it's just highlighted more- Yeah in the sort of healthcare industry because it's more obvious to people. You're dealing with people- it's more... Yeah. People they understand it more. We also work with teachers. Yeah. And they are nurses and doctors and healthcare staff and social workers and counselors, as well as being a teacher. Yeah. And it's really hard. Can you remember a time when you were aware that that the impact of the trauma that you were witnessing affected you? When you've said, "I'm fine," and you just know that actually that wasn't the right thing. You're not fine. Now for me, There are instances where I've done that. They haven't necessarily been work-related, I have to say. You're at work every day of the week no matter what's going on in the rest of your life. Yeah. So you take you and whatever is happening- wherever you go. You can't escape it. Yeah. And I've, again, I've found that this is my experience, my personal experience, has, I think, helped me to deal with my professional life because I've had more trauma in my personal life down to health with my family. But, on the one hand, that's been the thing that's flipped me over the edge. But on the other hand, now that I've come back from being flipped over the edge, I take that into my every day with patients. So when patients are going through trauma or just managing the healthcare system, which I have to say is a traumatic thing to do. You can have an illness, and yes, the illness is traumatic, but boy, dealing with the NHS so I think the idea of me being in a situation where I say I'm fine when I'm not, for a start, I think it depends who's asking me the question. If somebody in the hospital that I don't know very well or a patient's relative says, "How are you, Libby?" "I'm fine, thanks. How are you?" It's almost rote. Yeah. But that's because I think, we're aware of social norms. People don't ask you how you are expecting you to splurge all over them. No. They were like... Exactly. If you do splurge over them, you could guarantee they won't ask you how you are again for about two years. Yeah. So there's an understanding about who's asking that question. And I think maybe within a work environment we should have an expectation of those who are either working with us, and this applies to ourselves as well for our colleagues. So people who are working with us or people who are managing us to genuinely want to know how we are, so we should have the space and time to be able to say to those people, "Actually, I'm not that good today," and I think that from a colleague perspective, depends on who your colleagues are. Yeah. Some are fantastic, some are not. And definitely in terms of management, having your manager genuinely ask you, "How are you doing? You all right?" Yeah. Then you might share because you feel like it's safe to share. Yeah. Because they're genuinely asking you how you are. I think if people just say, "You all right?" As they pass you in the corridor I'm not gonna share I'm not how I feel with that person because A, I don't want to, share my inner being with someone who is that careless. But why would I if they're, just running down the corridor going, "You all right?" Yeah. So again, I think it's who's asking the question is a very important thing to consider when you think why do I say I'm fine when I'm not? It's because it's nuanced, I think. It depends- Yeah who's asking and how well they know you, and how genuinely interested they seem to be. Yes. Completely. 'Cause It's funny that. in some of the work was just done originally on compassion fatigue. There's this concept of sliming on your friends. Have you heard that phrase before? I haven't, no. When you overshare something with people who are not necessarily in the same profession as you. Oh, okay. And so Things that you or I might say as healthcare professionals would be horrifying to somebody who worked in a bank. Because they wouldn't understand that's, A, that very dark sense of humor that you have to have in order to be able to deal with this job and, B, that we don't really mean it. But you do have to be careful because you can really traumatize other people by sharing too much of how you feel. So yeah You're right. It's very nuanced depending on who you're with. Yeah. Even with your family, you have to be careful. Oh, gosh. Even worse. Yeah. Dinner table conversations where, you'll be talking about all manner of things- Yeah And your poor parents are sat there going, "Feeling quite bilious now, actually." Really? That's true. That's true. I thought that was fine. Toby and I have been married for 35 years now. He's pretty much heard it all. Yeah. I find that as well, when you think about how you go about questioning people, this is something I find really hard to turn off in my personal life. Somebody will say, like a friend, completely unrelated to, healthcare at all, say, "Oh, do you know I've had a really bad headache it's probably been a week now. And I'll be like, "Okay, so when did it come on?" Yeah, exactly. "What were you doing? Can you remember what did you eat before? Is it right-sided? Is it left-sided? Did it come from the back over the front? And I think, "Hang on a minute, Libby, you're not doing the differential here. This is your friend." Telling You know, it becomes who you are. And something you said a bit earlier as well about, like you always take yourself with you wherever you go. That, that's one of the things that we always have to remember, isn't it? Because- something's really bad that's going on at home, and that then, it erodes that emotional resilience in you for a period of time. So when something emotional happens at work, it has more of an impact on you. And because we don't get that training, as you've said, in how to deal with that, what it is, what it does to us physiologically, it's easy to dismiss it and try and push it down. Do you know- And just stay there that's, I think that's really interesting about, you know- We're not immune as healthcare professionals. We don't have, iron guards around us. And I think the way that healthcare is organized these days, it's very structured and outcome-based- everything is measured. I don't know whether you've heard of Iain McGilchrist. He wrote a book called The Master and His Emissary, which I'm trying to work my way through, Jayne. It's very thick. But I cheated rather and watched a documentary about it because it was much easier. Think that's what I did. Yeah. About the divided brain and how as a society we've become very left brain dominant. Yeah. And we have structured things in a way that almost negates the right side of your brain, obviously your brain works, as a whole, but there are two distinct parts of your brain that have different, mechanisms, things that they do. And we've forgotten the whole right side. We've forgotten the whole about compassion and nature and being part of nature and how we are as human beings and how we relate to other people. And I think in healthcare that's where you feel that rub because you've got the person who's probably more dominantly right brained caring, soft and fluffy. And they're going into an environment which is inherently left brain. It's very structured, very measured, and there's a disconnect there. Yeah. That's a really good point when you say I am struggling," or you want to bring some emotion, no, we don't do that. No, we don't do that. We hide behind this, shield of left brain, we must be professional, Now, obviously there's a reason for that because like I said before, you don't want to splurge over patients. That was completely inappropriate. But I do think there's something about taking who you are and your experience into your work every day. 100%. And I think that- Yeah probably about a month ago now, I went on a, it wasn't really a course, it was a two-day exploration really of arts and medicine and how to put the humanity back into medicine again. I did it at Barts Hospital with an art therapist. And we were taken to the pathology museum at Barts. I don't know if you've ever been there. Fascinating place. Just about everything you could think of preserved in aspic. Is everything you can think of pickled? Literally. Pickled, yeah. It is. Yeah. There were some pictures in there as well, and we were tasked had 10 minutes to walk around the pathology museum to find something that spoke to us as human beings and as healthcare professionals. And I was very fortunate that I came across this picture very quickly, and it was a drawing of a hand. And the hand, it was the left hand, and the wedding finger had a ring on it. The middle finger had a huge Fatty lump huge kind of goutish fatty lump that was distorting the ring finger- and distorting the first finger. Now I looked at that and I thought, to me, that is a sign that the illness, so this great big lump that was on this middle finger, has an impact on the patient because it's the patient's hand. Okay? Yeah. But the lump was pressing on the wedding ring. Now, the wedding ring to me implies family and loved ones. Yeah. And it was pushing on that finger. And that spoke to me as being that illness pushing on the family. You're not alone as a patient. Yeah. You have people around you and it impacts. And then I thought to myself, okay, so she could have that removed surgically she'd still have a deformed finger. And not only that, but the finger that lump had impacted would also remain deformed. Yeah. And so that spoke to me as being like the illness impacts the patient. Of course it does, but it has a huge impact on the people around. So that's what I saw from that picture, because that's inherently my experience of the last 10 years with my family. That's what I saw. Somebody else would see something possibly completely different to me, but that's what I see when I look at it. And then we looked at- Yeah a face of a, of was it a patient? I don't know. It was just a drawn face. And what do you see when you look at that face? And we were a group of about, I don't know, 20 people. Everyone saw something different, and everyone assumed something different based on what they saw. And I thought, "This is exactly what happens when you go and see a patient." You take you with you- and your perspective and your experience, and you, in a way, you project that onto the patient. Sometimes that's not good. Sometimes you can use that experience to connect with people and to show empathy because you understand. You're not separate from- Yeah people. We talk about patients like they're a different entity. We're all patients at some point. Yes. Healthcare professionals are patients at some point we're no different. And I don't think we can really take that, higher moral stance. We're all patients at some point, yeah. And interesting how seeing that, what I got from that picture, somebody else would've got something completely different. And how I thought- Yeah "This is what we take to our patients." But professionalism would say no. Shut that down. You are the professional." And I think that's where you get that disconnect really. Yeah. Yeah because in order to be able to really help somebody, you have to connect with them. Yeah. Because they have to trust you. And so you have to make that connection and the longer you do this job, the better you get at trying to find that connection quickly, don't you? You navigate your way into what is it that I can do it. And I always make a joke about the fact that some of the best people at doing this are paramedics, and they use humor. Yes. 'Cause they have to get you to trust them- Yeah because they're about to do something like you're hanging upside down in your car. Yeah. And so they will often use humor to do it. But I think especially people who work with people who are end of life, who have cancer or any long-term condition really, you get very adept at making that therapeutic connection with people in order for them to trust you so you can help them. Yeah. You... I agree. But then inherently comes a danger- Do you know what, though? Talking about paramedics, And they do use humor, and sometimes I think it works. But talking about burnout and that kind of thing, I got to a stage beginning of last year, where too much had happened. Yeah. And it was just one thing. This is not at work. Bit at work, mostly at home. Yeah. Too much had happened, and one morning, just could not really get out of bed. My heart rate was sky high. Yeah I was, hyperventilating. I was not well. And the paramedics came and there was two of them. One was the jokey kind, trying to lighten the mood. Yeah. I couldn't. I wasn't in a state where I could actually take that on board. Yeah I couldn't take the humor. But the other one it was a young lady, she just knelt by the bed and talked to me. That's all she did. That was the treatment. Yeah. Obviously- And- there were other things that came after that, yeah. They are very good at that. They're very good at just assessing where they need to be. Yeah. So we call it responsible selfishness. Yes. So what is Libby's responsible selfishness? What do you do that keeps you grounded, that keeps you sane, that refills that emotional energy that you need to be able to do your job and look after yourself? I'm not a particular fan of that phrase, responsible selfishness, because I think the word selfish, no matter what word you put before it, is inherently implies something bad. That's why I use it 100%, because it makes you think- I like health- I like healthy boundaries a little bit better than that. Yeah. But in terms of what I do, I think I do a lot of things outside of my job- so that my job is not really my identity. And I think I've learnt to do that. But going back to where I started in life, like I grew up playing the piano. I cannot remember a time when I did not play the piano. From a very young age, like I think I was about four when I started having lessons. So I've grown up expressing myself through music- either listening or playing. So if I'm miserable, I play. If I'm happy, I play. If I'm cross, I play Liszt. That's my means of expression, and I feed my inner soul because I feel in my soul I'm a musician. Yeah. That's who I am. Physiotherapy is something that I do as work. I do really enjoy it and I get a lot out of it. But that is essentially my professional hat. If you ask me about me, Libby I like music, I like going to the theater. I like, going to the opera. I play. I can get lost for hours in a piece of music. Absolutely hours. Just in my thoughts really listening to this piece of music. So- I think, people talk about the jar, don't they? Filling your jar and how much of it is full. You have to have room in the jar for things that that feed you. Yeah. And if your jar is too full with work, looking after others,. Caring responsibilities, there's no room in the jar left for Libby. Yeah. And that's where the selfishness comes in because inherently you go I'll put myself to one side, But I think you have to. It's a cliche, but you can't pour from an empty cup, can you? You have to have time where you just reset. Yeah. I have to have time. People never believe me when I say this, but I actually am quite shy. And I do find that when I go out and I do my job I have to have some time where I'm at home and I'm alone. Yeah. And I have that downtime. Even when I, spend time with friends or family, there comes a point where I need to be on my own and alone. Doesn't need to be for maybe a day, and then I'm okay again. Yeah. But that sort of having time that is just for you, doing what you love doing or just, listening to music is really important for me and I think that's my responsible selfishness. Learning to say no- Yes is another one. Of course. That you don't have to say yes to everything. And also, this is something that I've learned as I've got a little bit older. You don't have to give a reason either. Yeah. A s- That's really powerful. That's a really powerful no. Y- exactly. I'm sorry- Yeah but no." And I, I think younger me would've said that because I really can't do because of da, and, "I'm really sorry- Yeah but I can't do that." Now it's just, "I'm really sorry. I can't do that." Yeah. And, and I think that's a better way to be for everybody. It's better for you. Better for the person- Yeah that's asking you 'cause they know where they are. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. You're very welcome. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for being on my podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. And I hope you carry on playing your music and taking good care of yourself. Thank you, Jayne. That's all right. You're very welcome. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye.